The Truth About Islam
We hear so much folderol these days about Islam being a "peaceful religion." The fact is that Islam is anti-human and anti-woman - the most anti-human and anti-woman ideology on the face of the earth today. We need merely repeat a number of quotes from the Koran itself in order to prove these points. Anyone who claims the opposite is either willfully ignorant or despicably dishonest - and there are far too many people making such erroneous or deceptive assertions.
Let's start with the idiocy that Islam is "peaceful." In the first place, the record speaks for itself: Horrendous barbarism and atrocity repeatedly carried out in the name of Islam, wherever it can be found worldwide over a period of many centuries. Let us examine one of the worst examples of modern history: The horrors perpetrated in Bangladesh. No civilized human being could possibly participate in such atrocities.
tbknews.blogspot.com/2006/03...ind.html
3 million deaths and 200,000 rapes - these are the fruits of a "peaceful religion?!"
Fast forward to the millions of foaming-at-the-mouth ranters killing and threatening people worldwide over some cartoons - cartoons that accurately lampooned this hideous ideology. These are the fruits of a "peaceful religion?"
The list of atrocities done in the name of Islam is VERY LONG and includes the ongoing torture of women. Let's proceed with the fallacy that Islam is "peaceful." Here is a quote from the Koran that puts to rest that lie once and for all:
"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." Q 9:73
I repeat, anyone asserting otherwise is simply ignorant or a purveyor of falsehood, to say the least.
The treatment of women within Islam is absolutely ABYSMAL - and is contrived to be so, through the manmade set of "laws" found in the Koran, a book with the psychotic qualities of the Bible but none of the "entertaining" stories. It is as if the writers of the Koran set out to chronicle the most atrocious concept of God ever developed. Here is what the Koran says about women:
"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient." Q 4:34
PLEASE read the other quotes at: www.truthbeknown.com/islamquotes.htm
This article ranks no. 1 in the world when "quotes from the koran" is googled, along with a number of other keyphrases.
I will not even go into the horrid mistreatment of boys within Muslim communities - it is a revolting aspect indeed. I have written about this awful psychopathy within Islam for many years, but many still do not know about it. Even though it is unfortunately not widely known, there is an unending epidemic of child abuse - specifically sexual abuse - within Islamic societies, starting, of course, with Mohammed's rape of his 9-year-old "bride." These facts should not be let slip by lightly, as they are the root of much of the sociopathy we are facing with the encroachment of Muslim cultures in the U.S. and elsewhere. With that increase in the U.S., we also have record numbers of emergency-room visits by little girls with their genitals hacked off, a recent case of the psycho in Georgia who cut off his 2-year-old daughter's clitoris with a pair of scissors. Fortunately, this
demented moron received 10 years - because female genital mutilation is illegal in the U.S., as it should be in any CIVILIZED country.
In my opinion, the spread of this fanatically violent and misogynistic ideology is a great threat that we all need to take very seriously. It does not bode well for the civilized world that the purveyors of barbarism are freely trampling over the term "truth." These individuals should NOT be allowed to get away with their spurious and disgraceful assertions but should be loudly called to the carpet.
We hear so much folderol these days about Islam being a "peaceful religion." The fact is that Islam is anti-human and anti-woman - the most anti-human and anti-woman ideology on the face of the earth today. We need merely repeat a number of quotes from the Koran itself in order to prove these points. Anyone who claims the opposite is either willfully ignorant or despicably dishonest - and there are far too many people making such erroneous or deceptive assertions.
Let's start with the idiocy that Islam is "peaceful." In the first place, the record speaks for itself: Horrendous barbarism and atrocity repeatedly carried out in the name of Islam, wherever it can be found worldwide over a period of many centuries. Let us examine one of the worst examples of modern history: The horrors perpetrated in Bangladesh. No civilized human being could possibly participate in such atrocities.
tbknews.blogspot.com/2006/03...ind.html
3 million deaths and 200,000 rapes - these are the fruits of a "peaceful religion?!"
Fast forward to the millions of foaming-at-the-mouth ranters killing and threatening people worldwide over some cartoons - cartoons that accurately lampooned this hideous ideology. These are the fruits of a "peaceful religion?"
The list of atrocities done in the name of Islam is VERY LONG and includes the ongoing torture of women. Let's proceed with the fallacy that Islam is "peaceful." Here is a quote from the Koran that puts to rest that lie once and for all:
"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." Q 9:73
I repeat, anyone asserting otherwise is simply ignorant or a purveyor of falsehood, to say the least.
The treatment of women within Islam is absolutely ABYSMAL - and is contrived to be so, through the manmade set of "laws" found in the Koran, a book with the psychotic qualities of the Bible but none of the "entertaining" stories. It is as if the writers of the Koran set out to chronicle the most atrocious concept of God ever developed. Here is what the Koran says about women:
"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient." Q 4:34
PLEASE read the other quotes at: www.truthbeknown.com/islamquotes.htm
This article ranks no. 1 in the world when "quotes from the koran" is googled, along with a number of other keyphrases.
I will not even go into the horrid mistreatment of boys within Muslim communities - it is a revolting aspect indeed. I have written about this awful psychopathy within Islam for many years, but many still do not know about it. Even though it is unfortunately not widely known, there is an unending epidemic of child abuse - specifically sexual abuse - within Islamic societies, starting, of course, with Mohammed's rape of his 9-year-old "bride." These facts should not be let slip by lightly, as they are the root of much of the sociopathy we are facing with the encroachment of Muslim cultures in the U.S. and elsewhere. With that increase in the U.S., we also have record numbers of emergency-room visits by little girls with their genitals hacked off, a recent case of the psycho in Georgia who cut off his 2-year-old daughter's clitoris with a pair of scissors. Fortunately, this
demented moron received 10 years - because female genital mutilation is illegal in the U.S., as it should be in any CIVILIZED country.
In my opinion, the spread of this fanatically violent and misogynistic ideology is a great threat that we all need to take very seriously. It does not bode well for the civilized world that the purveyors of barbarism are freely trampling over the term "truth." These individuals should NOT be allowed to get away with their spurious and disgraceful assertions but should be loudly called to the carpet.
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 4:47 PMummm... that article on the bangladesh liberation war is totally inaccurate. then east pakistan became a part of pakistan after the partition of india BECAUSE it was a muslim majority. that's what the partition was, a division of british india along lines of local religious majority. i don't know what the percentage was then but modern day bangladesh is 83% muslim. and the civil war between east and west pakistan was a war between muslims. that figure of 3,000,000 civilian deaths is not regarded as definitive by most scholars of south asia, it comes from a remark made by the first prime minister of bangladesh (a muslim) immediately after the war. most scholarly estimates put it at closer to 300,000 people, huge numbers of whom were muslim. -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 8:23 PMNaa, I think she made note of that:
The National Geographic article of November 1972 calls what happened to the Bengalis a "Holocaust," addressing the mind-numbing mayhem and horror that decimated villages and left mass graves for all to see. At this time, art became filled with bloody images of murder and rape; even children were encouraged in drawing contests to chronicle these horrors. This section in the Geographic states:
"Sheik Mujib's government says that three million Bengalis died between March and December 1971. The figure is probably inflated. But certainly the terrors and atrocities committed here - in Dacca [Dhaka] and all across the gentle land of rivers and marshlands - came close to genocide."
Other than that, you want to take it up with 'The National Geographic' since they wrote that article.
I don't think this changes the point of "The Truth About Islam" though.
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Unsu...
Re: The Truth About Islam
Fri, March 23, 2007 - 8:17 AMThe problem is with fundamentalist Islam. There are very many people that practice Islam, especially in more secular nations who believe in the separation of mosque and state.
It is not dissimilar to the divergence between fundamentalist Christians and Christians who accept separation of church and state.
If I remember correctly, Bush is a Christian and has the blood of over 500,000 Iraqis on his hands.
I do not consider all Ismamic people to be my enemy andy more than I view all Christians that way.
Some of this anti Muslim propganda is put out by right wing Christians like Wiliiam Bennett
(author of The Boookies of Virtue) in order to justify US foreign policy.
I consider my self an agnostic and a free thinker and I still defend the rights of citizens to practice the religion of their choice. In the U.S. the rights of Muslims, Christians and Jews are give equal protection of the Constitution.
If we wish to talk about violent religions then we cannot forget things like the Crusades and the Inquisition. For sheer brutality and bloodshed the Islamic faith is no different than the Christian faith.
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Unsu...
Re: The Truth About Islam
Fri, March 23, 2007 - 8:46 AMMaybe this should be a different thread, but related to this is the idea that secular society has had a civilizing effect on religion. That because in large parts of the world religion has existed in secular societies. Sadly it has not civilized fundamentalism, but with more time....?
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Fri, March 23, 2007 - 11:21 AMI go along with what Chopper is saying. Any Islamist that is really peaceful, then he rejects the violent aspect of Islam and says publically that those who do great violence are not really Islamists. Instead of that we get silent groveling, face in the dust, or worse, cooperation in the violence. Sorry, not convinced.
"If we wish to talk about violent religions then we cannot forget things like the Crusades and the Inquisition. For sheer brutality and bloodshed the Islamic faith is no different than the Christian faith. " -This is a defense of Islam? -
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Unsu...
Re: The Truth About Islam
Fri, March 23, 2007 - 11:39 AMI am not defending Islam any more than Christianity. They have both caused great harm in the world. I do defend the Constitutional rights of of Muslims as well as Christians. As long as they respect the rights of others, something that only a secular society can guarantee IMHO.
How does this sound? : "Any Christian that is really peaceful, then he rejects the violent aspect of Christianity and says publicly that those who do great violence are not really Christians.....
I think our civil liberities are better off if we just assume that the rights of all believers and non believers are equally protected by the U.S. Constitution.
I refuse to be turned against my neighbors just because of their religious belief. Isn't that part of what we all reject in places like Iran or Saudi Arabia? -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 11:55 AM"How does this sound? : 'Any Christian that is really peaceful, then he rejects the violent aspect of Christianity and says publicly that those who do great violence are not really Christians.....' "
That's great! But are Christians going to reject those parts of their holy book that preach violence any more than Muslims? I doubt it.
I do not defend any rights, constitutional or otherwise, of any group who swears obedience to a particular big daddy in the sky, who commands them to kill, carry out agressive war, mistreat women, etc. Why should I? They already have me under a death sentence and it is only secular justice that keeps them from carrying it out. Respect them? How silly! Kill them? No, I will not sink to their level. Unless, of course, they come for me first. Like Hitler's Christian based SS coming to get Jews to kill them.
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Fri, March 23, 2007 - 11:41 AMwhat does that even mean? how can anyone say someone else isn't an "islamist". someone is muslim because they say they're muslim. a muslim saying that islam is a religion of peace is doing what he can and should do, trying to direct people toward what is good and peaceful about their religion. internally and externally.
and how is speaking out about how they experience the nature of their religion silent groveling?
what on earth are they supposed to do about what drives someone to commit suicide to bomb something? the fact that they might talk with more sympathy about what would drive someone to do something like that in a way that isn't a hysterically xenophobic reaction to islam doesn't mean that they have thier "face in the dust".
"I go along with what Chopper is saying. Any Islamist that is really peaceful, then he rejects the violent aspect of Islam and says publically that those who do great violence are not really Islamists. Instead of that we get silent groveling, face in the dust, or worse, cooperation in the violence. Sorry, not convinced. "
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Fri, March 23, 2007 - 9:11 AMIf anyone still believes that Islam is so 'peaceful', then explain the article below. And explain why this woman & so many others are fearing for their lives? Explain why Muslims were so willing to KILL over a few Mohammad cartoons? Why are they so willing to blow themselves up? Why are women afraid to show their hair or even skin from their ankles? Also, why is Van Gogh DEAD?
Ayaan Hirsi Ali infuriates Muslims and discomfits liberals
www.israpundit.com/2006/
Instead of Muslisms attacking folks for exposing these points, maybe their time would better spent cleaning up their own backyard by going after all of these perpetrators of violence in the name of Islam? -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Fri, March 23, 2007 - 11:35 AMperhaps moderate muslims would be in a better position to moderate islam if the west didn't participate in such hysterical attacks on islam in general and make hysterical claims about what islam "is".
islam is no better or worse than any other religion. call out the specific ideas, don't try to vilify a religion in general, and particularly don't attack the very attempts at moderation that you are supposedly trying to demand.
when a muslim public figure says that "islam is a religion of peace" he is just as much talking to other muslims as he is you.
"Instead of Muslisms attacking folks for exposing these points, maybe their time would better spent cleaning up their own backyard by going after all of these perpetrators of violence in the name of Islam? "
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Fri, March 23, 2007 - 11:31 AMthe national geographic article states that it is "probably inflated", the article you posted a link to presents it as fact. and your post presents it as fact.
"The National Geographic article of November 1972 calls what happened to the Bengalis a "Holocaust," addressing the mind-numbing mayhem and horror that decimated villages and left mass graves for all to see. At this time, art became filled with bloody images of murder and rape; even children were encouraged in drawing contests to chronicle these horrors. This section in the Geographic states:
"Sheik Mujib's government says that three million Bengalis died between March and December 1971. The figure is probably inflated. But certainly the terrors and atrocities committed here - in Dacca [Dhaka] and all across the gentle land of rivers and marshlands - came close to genocide."
Other than that, you want to take it up with 'The National Geographic' since they wrote that article.
I don't think this changes the point of "The Truth About Islam" though. " -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 10:04 AMPedophilia in Islam
Muhammed -The Pedophile -
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari Aisha: that the Prophet (Muhammed 53 years old) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
www.papillonsartpalace.com/muht...d.htm
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Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements:
"A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven."
Khomeini, "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990
“It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her.”
www.faithfreedom.org/Article...18p2.htm -
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Unsu...
Re: The Truth About Islam
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 10:19 AMIf he was a pedophile perhaps he would have been happier as a Catholic priest. : )
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Unsu...
A scary quote from The Bible....
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 11:40 AM"How blessed the one who seizes your little children and smashes them against a rock"
Psalms 137:9
Where I live about 95% of the people consider themselves to be good Christians. For the sake of all of the children around here I pray they are not that devout.
Horrible ideas can be found in many religious writings. It makes no sense to single out either one because of a particular quote in a sacred text. In reality I think most believers of the Bible reject the above quote. I am sure that most Muslims do not condone pedophilia because of what Mohammad reportedly said.
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The Truth About Islam
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 12:51 PMAgain, another straw man argument. I feel the same about the bible, Christianity & more. Catholic Preists doing the same make it okay? No, of course not. Every single time someone has responded to this article defending Islam, they've given the same straw man arguemnt - saying, 'well Christianity does it too". What's up with that? It would behoove you to actually condemn this evil practice, rather than setting up straw men and attempting to wave it away. I am wondering to myself, what kind of people would not immediately condemn this type of practice?
The most ardent Muslim clerics constantly take quotes out of context in order to justify their sadistic behavior calling for the death of infidels & mistreatment of women.
This thread is titled, "The Truth About Islam" I have many threads exposing Christianity as well as many other religions for what they really are. Attempts to change the subject only demonstrates the lack of argument supporting the "peacefulness" of Islam. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Truth About Islam
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 1:51 PMI have never argued that Islam was a peaceful religion. I oppose the campaign of vilification of an entire population of citizens because of their religious affiliation.
When I read some of the anti-Islam propaganda from people like Franklin Graham it reminds me of the anti-Japanese propaganda in the 40's that led to the internment of thousands of US citizens. Some of it even recalls the anti Semitic slanders that were used against the Jewish People during WWII.
The constitutional protection for freedom of religion applies to those who believe in the Bible and the Koran. And as a secularist I believe the Constitution gives me the right to be free from religion.
There are many fundamentalists in the U.S. who whip up a campaign of vilification against secular humanists, a campaign very much like that being directed against our fellow citizens who happen to believe in Islam.
So who is next? which group will be the next target of such a campaign? Another religion?
An ethnic group? Gays? Immigrants?
The time to prevent the persecution of an entire people is now.
"Those who would give up liberty for security deserve neither"
Benjamin Franklin
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: The Truth About Islam
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 4:05 PMIslam is a violent religion. And of course I do not blame most the muslims. They were brought up to belive that nonsense so they do. Of course, there is back up to keep them there. This "peaceful" religion has one penalty for converting from Islam to another religion or no religion, and that is death. Of course, this penalty is peacefully applied, perhaps by a simple community stoning- nothing really violent.
The only reason that Chrisianity is not killing non-belivers today, is not due to any change in the religion. It's because secular government wrested control from the church, bringing it under the control of civil law, not the other way around. But I firmly feel that Christianity is, at the core, as bloody and violent as it was in the past. If some of the far right fundies were able to wield absolute control legally again, you don't believe that burnings at the stake would not appear again? Sure they would. Right out in front of the White House. -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Sat, March 24, 2007 - 7:04 PMVery good points by Bear & Roy.
"I have never argued that Islam was a peaceful religion. I oppose the campaign of vilification of an entire population of citizens because of their religious affiliation."
Okay Bear, I'm with you now. I have heard so many defenders of Islam lately saying, "Well look at what Christianity has done, if they can do it, so can we". I jumped the gate.
I'm saying, mass violence is wrong no matter who or what it is. Of course, I concur with your statement regarding not vilifying entire cultures. No one has made any generalities about people under the spell of Islam. However, an ideology that brainwashes people to do harmful acts to others is certainly condemnable, and it's the ideology that needs exposure here.
Most folks are not ware of the serious abuse of women in Islam & especially, the Pedophilia in Islam or that Muhammed himself was a Pedophile.
"Faith Freedom International is a grassroots movement of ex-Muslims. Its goals are to (a) unmask Islam and show that it is an imperialistic ideology akin to Nazism but disguised as religion and (b) to help Muslims leave it, end this culture of hate caused by their "us" vs. "them" ethos and embrace the human race in amity. We strive for the unity of Mankind through the elimination of Islam, the most insidious doctrine of hate. Islam can't be reformed, but it can be eradicated. It can't be molded, but it can be smashed. It is rigid but brittle. That is why Muslims do not tolerate criticism of it."
www.faithfreedom.org -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Thu, March 29, 2007 - 10:03 PMSharia Law in Germany -- Well On The Way!
An excellent 8-part article in Der Spiegel. Seems at least some
Germans are waking up to the dangers of multi-cultural tolerance,
towards those who are fully intolerant, and plan to eventually "take
over". Americans, Brits, Europeans, Canadians... especially women!
Read and learn. This is happening in your territory as well. J.D.
*Part 1: Paving the Way for a Muslim Parallel Society
www.spiegel.de/internatio...629,00.html
A recent ruling in Germany by a judge who cited the Koran underscores
the dilemma the country faces in reconciling Western values with a
growing immigrant population. A disturbing number of rulings are
helping to create a parallel Muslim world in Germany that is
welcoming to Islamic fundamentalists. ...
*Part 2: Does Germany already Have Sharia Law?
www.spiegel.de/internatio...9-2,00.html
Ursula Spuler-Stegemann, an Islam expert from the central German
university town of Marburg, has a similar take on the matter. "Do we
already have Sharia here?" she asks, adding that the Frankfurt case
shows that "things are getting out of hand here." ...
*Part 3: Violating the Principles of Equal Treatment
www.spiegel.de/internatio...9-3,00.html
For far too long, Germany's muslim immigrants were not asked to put
much effort into integrating. For decades, German judges essentially
paved the way for Islamic fundamentalists to form a parallel society.
They raised little opposition to the strategy employed by Islamic
groups to demand their supposed religious freedom in court until they
got it. But the judges must have known, argues Johannes Kandel, that
"giving preferential treatment to groups violates the principle of
equal treatment in a secular legal system. ...
*Part 4: Giving the Muezzin Free Reign
www.spiegel.de/internatio...9-4,00.html
Muslims can also often count on the support of German courts when it
comes to building mosques. As far back as 1992, the Federal
Administrative Court ruled that neighbors must "fundamentally accept"
being woken before sunup. ...
*Part 5: The Camel Fatwa and other Letters from Absurdistan
www.spiegel.de/internatio...9-5,00.html
This was an attitude that still prevailed in the minds of German
judges one year after the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks. At the time,
the higher administrative court in the state of North
Rhine-Westphalia ruled that a female Muslim student in the 10th grade
should be permitted not to take part in a school trip. The family had
argued that Islam prohibits allowing girls to go on such trips
without being accompanied by a male family member. The family also
insisted that the girl was constantly worried about losing her
headscarf. The judges found that such fears were "comparable with the
situation of a partially mentally impaired person who, because of her
disability, can only travel with a companion." This assessment was
devastating because it accepted the rules of a camel drivers' society
in the modern age -- literally, because a few years earlier, an
Islamic legal opinion dubbed the "camel fatwa" had been added to the
professional literature. ...
*Part 6: "Integration Has Failed Here"
www.spiegel.de/internatio...9-6,00.html
Experiences in urban German schools show just how much integration
has suffered as a result of the decisions of timorous judges in past
years. At the Carlo Mierendorff School in Preungesheim, a Frankfurt
neighborhood, about one-third of students in the upper grades are
permitted to not attend class trips for religious reasons, says
Alexander Zabler, the school's principal. To prevent their daughters
from traveling with schoolmates, many Muslim parents have either
called the girls in sick or simply ordered them not to show up.
Zabler tried many approaches, including talking to the parents,
visiting them at home, offering special meals for Muslims during
travel -- but all to no avail. Finally he turned to the government
and asked the local school board for help -- also to no avail. He has
since resigned. ...
*Part 7: Forced Marriages and Servility
www.spiegel.de/internatio...9-7,00.html
Of course, in many families there is no escaping the closeness
justified by Muslim traditions and rules. Women are brought up to
serve and obey. Boys are alternately spoiled and beaten, as custom
requires. According to a study conducted by the Lower Saxony
Criminology Research Institute, physical abuse of boys is more than
twice as common in Turkish families than German families. And "girls
from conservative families say that their fathers and brothers have
the right to hit them," reports Judith Gerling-Tamer, an educator at
the Elisi Evi Support Center for women and girls in Berlin's heavily
Muslim Kreuzberg district. ...
*Part 8: Europe at a Crossroads
www.spiegel.de/internatio...9-8,00.html
Berlin attorney Seyran Ates says: "We are at a crossroads, everywhere
in Europe. Do we allow structures that lead straight into a parallel
society, or do we demand assimilation into the democratic
constitutional state?" ... -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 7:27 AMYou ought to go post that on the True Islam tribe. LOL. Have your fire extinguisher at hand. -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 8:05 AMWhy isn't this thread just called "the truth about fundamentalists"? Fundamentalists of all stripes are xenophobic and oppressive - be they christian or muslim. Why not speak about against fundamentalism and religious extremism of all kinds? Or against christian influence on secular life and law?
Of course Sharia law shouldn't take the place of national law, just as christian fundamentalists' religious laws shouldn't take the place of national law (or be the basis of national laws and personal rights). Bigotry results when you hold up one group as an example while ignoring or accepting the same behavior from people in or associated with your own identity. -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 8:35 AM"Why isn't this thread just called "the truth about fundamentalists"? Fundamentalists of all stripes are xenophobic and oppressive - be they christian or muslim. Why not speak about against fundamentalism and religious extremism of all kinds? Or against christian influence on secular life and law?
Of course Sharia law shouldn't take the place of national law, just as christian fundamentalists' religious laws shouldn't take the place of national law (or be the basis of national laws and personal rights). Bigotry results when you hold up one group as an example while ignoring or accepting the same behavior from people in or associated with your own identity."
Amen (irony intended.) A plague on all their houses, to borrow an Abrahamic epiteth. (And of course it's in the nature of fundamentalists to take a statement like that literally rather than as metaphor.)
But it is fair to distinguish the differences in degree to which each form of fundamentalism seeks to impose its worldview, its meta-narrative, onto society as a whole.
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Unsu...
Re: The Truth About Islam
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 8:52 AM"Holy War: a bloody battle to determine who has the best imaginary friend"
Christianity and Islam both have a bloody history of trying to force their particular book on other people. Powerful people who support the current US occupation of Iraq are encouraging anti-Islam bias as part of their war propaganda. As a humanist I oppose both the war and anti-Islamic bigotry.
The current campaign to vilify Muslims is very similar to the sort of propaganda that has been used in pogroms against groups of people in the past.
The overwhelming majority of Muslims in western countries including the U.S. reject fundamentalist Islam as much as most Christians reject Christian based fundamentalism.
I think humanists have everything to gain by defending the dignity and rights of all citizens. If the rights of one group is undermined then we all lose. An injury to one is an injury to all.
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 9:28 AMIndeed. Every war has been accompanied by some degree of demonization of the Other. WW I: the ruthless Huns (Germans), WW II: Yellow Peril (Japanese) etc.
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 9:37 AMI still think religion of any kind should not be allowed. It should be illegal to practice any religion. -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 9:48 AMPolitical movements and cults that advocate the overthrow or taking over of the government and supression the constitution can be banned, outlawed and shut down, and the same should be true of churches that advocate the same thing. Fundlementalists whatever the flavor all sound basically the same. They are all very dangerous. I think they need to be harshly put down. Eveyone's freedom is at risk. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Truth About Islam
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 10:21 AMJim, the Bill of Rights applies equally to religious and political viewpoints. If we allow the government to ban any philosophy no matter how obnoxious the ideas may be then all of our rights are in danger. In the dark days of McCarthyism people use to fear speaking against the government for fear of being labeled "subversive".
I agree that religion is very harmful to the human spirit, but suppressing it is not the answer IMHO.
There is some reason for optimism to found in recent polls that show that more younger people consider themselves agnostics or atheists than at any other time in history. Some of the reasons sighted for this happy development include the fact that the actions of fundamentalists of all stripes have turned a whole generation of folks away from religion. -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 10:49 AM"There is some reason for optimism to found in recent polls that show that more younger people consider themselves agnostics or atheists than at any other time in history. Some of the reasons sighted for this happy development include the fact that the actions of fundamentalists of all stripes have turned a whole generation of folks away from religion."
Yes; letting their obnoxious ignorance be exposed to the withering light of day is preferable to driving it underground, where, ironically, it might gain more cachet. The idea that their actions being on view have helped turn off a lot off younger folks matches my observations. (BTW, it's "cited" - like "citation" - not "sighted", though you could say you sighted something that was cited. ;-) I come from a line of journalists.)
I won't be so naive as to say that it's just a matter of the best ideas (rational, humanist, pluralist) winning out in the "marketplace of ideas", in some vague Kantian sense, since we know all too well how all markets, literal and metaphoric, can be coerced or manipulated, but still, I think it's preferable to protect all viewpoints under the banner of free speech. And hate speech (not always easy to define) can be punished or held accountable without banning it outright. -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 11:03 AMYou all are probably correct, and I guess my post was not all together serious.
I have been reading a lot on tribe and other places about things related to fundamentalists that it seems like they are everywhere.
Each groups thinks its fairy tales are better then the other guy's.
Sometime it seems like no one wants to think for themselves.
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Thu, April 12, 2007 - 4:01 AMWhile free speech and tolerance for all is a thing that sounds good and sounds like something that would be desirable in a society, I find it hard to figure out how it be attained .Religions are based on total intolerance of other religion. Each one thinks it has found the key to salvation and that all the others haven't. They see each other a threats that need to be convinced to change or be done eliminated. -
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Unsu...
Re: The Truth About Islam
Thu, April 12, 2007 - 4:40 AMThat is why separation of church and state is the best way to protect everybody's freedom.
The fact that under the US Constitution no single religion is allowed to impose their will on others is what keeps them all in check. Here in the US we have sort of a Christian Taliban who would if given the chance make Christianity the state religion of America. Thankfully both the public and the Constitution places a wall of separation between church and state.
Some religious advocates believe that religion can help civilize society. I believe the opposite is true. I think that since in the west religion has existed in a secular context that secular society has had a civilizing influence on religion. Secular society forces all religions to co-exist along side each other and does not allow any religion to make rules for the rest of us.
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Thu, April 12, 2007 - 5:25 AMNo offense Bear but as your neighbor I'd like to point out that the wall separating church and state in the US is pretty flimsy and damaged. A born again president who thinks (or at least says) he's doing god's will and starts a "crusade" against "evil" and then allocates most of the country's resources to fighting an aggressive offensive war to protect "our way of life" and "our values"... A president who doesn't allow funding of sex education or women's health care services if they're provided by an organization that also allows women to choose to practice birth control or terminate a pregnancy. This president has had enough support from other elected officials to be able to enact all these faith based initiatives so there's obviously a very very large bridge over, or tunnel under, that wall that's supposed to separate church and state.
I'm not sure about secular society having a "civilizing influence" upon religion. That's an interesting idea but I'm not sure it's actually true. Religions have coexisted at many times and places in history - particularly in cities that were centres for trade or ports. Cosmopolitan societies tend to be more tolerant - and our world seems to have become split between the cosmopolitan and the xenophobic fundamentalists (with a large number of the herd pulled between their two urges).
And let's not forget that the "secular" society in the West has a christian basis and bias, and many of our laws are based in christian morality. Some of this has changed over the past couple of decades but, for instance, something that's as obviously an equal right as gay marriage is, is being opposed on moral grounds. -
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Thu, April 12, 2007 - 8:24 AMA human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein, 1954)
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Unsu...
Re: The Truth About Islam
Thu, April 12, 2007 - 9:03 AMFifi, you are right that the wall separating church and state has been made too porous by the government. The good news is that most citizens believe that the wall between church and state should stand. It is a constant battle to defend constitutional rights.
One of the issues you mentioned, xenophobia has become a big issue here. After years of being scapegoated for economic problems immigrants are standing up for their rights. Last year the largest political demonstrations in U.S. history took place when millions joined rallies on May 1st for full rights for all immigrants. (and it has reestablished international workers day in the U.S.)
I think the issue of marriage rights is important and worth fighting for, but as a secular humanist I think civil unions are the only thing that the government should be recognizing for both heterosexual and same sex unions. When the issue is posed as "gay marriage" it implies that the government could force religions to recognize all marriages, but if all couples can obtain a civil union license it would be up to individual churches, temples, and mosques to label the union as a marriage or not according to their belief system.
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Re: The Truth About Islam
Thu, April 12, 2007 - 10:04 AMBear - I find it odd that the fact that the battle for gay marriage is perceived by so many Americans as being about the right to marry in a church not as about equal civil recognition of same sex partnerships. I know that in Canada it's certainly been
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